{"id":17857,"date":"2007-11-27T09:52:03","date_gmt":"2007-11-27T08:52:03","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.fondazionebassetti.org\/non_categorizzato\/2007\/11\/of_flies_and_forests_putting_l_1_2"},"modified":"2024-02-25T10:13:11","modified_gmt":"2024-02-25T09:13:11","slug":"of_flies_and_forests_putting_l_1_2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.fondazionebassetti.org\/en\/live_archive\/2007\/11\/of_flies_and_forests_putting_l_1_2","title":{"rendered":"Of flies and forests: putting laboratory work in its social context (part 2)"},"content":{"rendered":"

(…continues from the previous entry<\/a>)<\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nThat’s a very interesting context because usually, when we think about public understanding of science or media exposure of a scientific discovery, it’s always thought of as something monolithic, and the term of comparison is by a kind of implicit definition western society.<\/strong> Very rarely one takes into consideration that there may be many different cultural environment in which media exposure means one thing or just the opposite. Because I can imagine in Italy, or in France, or in Great Britain that if you argued for genetic determinism of being gay, there would be many people that wouldn’t be happy about it.
\nI just wonder how this ties in with what you have called the institutionalisation of Nature in Japanese society.<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nJ’ai utilis\u00e9 cette expression pour un autre projet, la mise en place de l’exposition universelle qui a eu lieu l’ann\u00e9e derni\u00e8re. C’\u00e9tait la deuxi\u00e8me exposition universelle \u00e0 se tenir en Asie, au Japon en fait, la premi\u00e8re ayant eu lieu en 1970, toujours au Japon, et c’\u00e9tait alors la toute-premi\u00e8re \u00e0 partir de l’Occident. Le th\u00e8me de l’exposition \u00e9tait la red\u00e9couverte de la sagesse de la nature, un th\u00e8me tr\u00e8s \u00e0 la mode. Les expositions universelles sont tr\u00e8s li\u00e9es \u00e0 l’histoire du progr\u00e8s technique ; \u00e9tant donn\u00e9 les circonstances actuelles le d\u00e9veloppement technique n’est plus mis \u00e0 l’honneur.
\nAu d\u00e9part du projet l’id\u00e9e des concepteurs japonais \u00e9tait de soumettre \u00e0 la communaut\u00e9 internationale un type de nature et un type de relation \u00e0 la nature qui soit typiquement japonais. On avait s\u00e9lectionn\u00e9 un type de paysage qu’on appelle “satoyama”, qui n’est pas si sp\u00e9cifiquement japonais, qui d\u00e9signe un paysage semi-agricole : \u00e0 la sortie des villages il y a des rizi\u00e8res , puis la for\u00c3\u00aat, la nature sauvage derri\u00e8re, et enfin la montagne. Ce genre de paysage \u00e9tait cens\u00e9 repr\u00e9senter, traditionnellement, un certain type de relation \u00e0 la nature. Les japonais disent d’eux-m\u00c3\u00aames qu’ils entretiennent une relation harmonieuse avec la nature et qu’ils sont amoureux de la nature.
\nIls voulaient rendre universelle, internationaliser cette nature-l\u00e0, qui \u00e9tait au d\u00e9part attach\u00e9e localement. C’est dans ce sens-l\u00e0 que j’en parlais.
\nIl y a eu, pour ce projet d’exposition, beaucoup de controverses qui ont engag\u00e9 aussi la responsabilit\u00e9 de plein de scientifiques, et pas seulement, parce que l’usage qu’on voulait faire de ce bout de for\u00c3\u00aat (physiquement, c’\u00e9tait une portion de la for\u00c3\u00aat de Kaisho) a \u00e9t\u00e9 tr\u00e8s controvers\u00e9. Les gens du coin, les premiers, on dit : il ne faut pas toucher \u00e0 la nature. Ils sont donc all\u00e9s chercher les scientifiques, les experts pour mener des \u00e9tudes dans la for\u00c3\u00aat et montrer \u00e0 quel point telle esp\u00e8ce ornithologique \u00e9tait rare, pondait les \u00c5\u201cufs au moment o\u00f9 aurait eu lieu l’exposition, etc. Donc, les scientifiques se sont aussi mobilis\u00e9s, certains pour l’exposition, en montrant qu’il fallait effectivement prendre en compte tous ces param\u00e8tres naturels et culturels pour ne pas d\u00e9truire tout ; et puis il y avait tout un lot de scientifiques qui se sont mobilis\u00e9s contre l’exposition, en disant : attention! on arr\u00c3\u00aate tout.<\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nIt’s a very interesting controversy. One mounted around the possibility to hold an exhibition about the wisdom of nature and in the process of doing that you may well destroy it.<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nC’\u00e9tait exactement l’argument que les gens avan\u00c3\u00a7aient en premier : au nom de la nature vous allez d\u00e9truire la nature.<\/strong> Apr\u00e8s, ce que j’ai regard\u00e9, moi, c’est la mani\u00e8re dont non pas des scientifiques, mais des experts comme des architectes, par exemple les premiers architectes qui ont travaill\u00e9 sur l’exposition, ont fait des propositions pour que le paradoxe ne soit plus apparent. C’est-\u00e0-dire que effectivement on expose la nature sans la d\u00e9truire. Il fallait trouver des solutions pour faire \u00c3\u00a7a. <\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nThat was, if you want, an example of looking for responsible innovation in architecture<\/strong>, I imagine. Because they must have been looking for innovative solutions. My idea, when I think about the universal exhibition is pavilions, pavilions, pavilions and a tarmac; not exactly in the centre of a forest. Have you developed this project? Do you want to make an example?<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nAu tout-d\u00e9but du projet, justement, \u00e9tant donn\u00e9 que le projet \u00e9tait d\u00e9velopp\u00e9 dans cette controverse, les premi\u00e8res propositions faites par les architectes et les concepteurs – il y avait un anthropologue aussi, et des artistes qui y travaillaient dedans – c’\u00e9tait de dire : on expose la nature, c’est le th\u00e8me de l’exposition, on ne la d\u00e9truit pas. Il y avait donc deux solutions qu’avait propos\u00e9s l’architecte Kuma Kengo, qui est un architecte assez connu au Japon. Pour la premi\u00e8re solution, il avait d\u00e9velopp\u00e9 le concept de “topos-architecture<\/strong>“, une architecture enterr\u00e9e : pas de pavillons, pas de b\u00c3\u00a2timents. Les b\u00c3\u00a2timents administratifs, pour l’accueil des gens, auraient profit\u00e9 de la topographie naturelle du site pour \u00c3\u00aatre enterr\u00e9s. Au-dessus on n’aurait rien vu. Il a con\u00c3\u00a7u de tr\u00e8s belles images pour convaincre de la possibilit\u00e9 de faire \u00c3\u00a7a. Une autre proposition qu’il avait faite et qui \u00e9tait encore plus radicale d’un point de vue architectural, c’est de dire : on ne construit rien<\/strong>, \u00e0 part ces b\u00c3\u00a2timents administratifs ; la seule intervention architecturale qu’on fait, qui n’en est pas une \u00e0 proprement parler, c’est qu’on laisse les gens se promener dans la for\u00c3\u00aat et on les \u00e9quipe de lunettes virtuelles. Sur ces lunettes virtuelles, le principe \u00e9tait celui de “nature augment\u00e9e<\/strong>” : quand vous regardez avec vos lunettes la for\u00c3\u00aat vous voyez la for\u00c3\u00aat telle que vous la voyez sans lunettes, mais vous voyez en sur-imposition tout un tas d’informations. Quand je regarde un tel arbre je vois aussi l’\u00c3\u00a2ge de l’arbre, le poids de l’arbre, la qualit\u00e9, le type de l’arbre etc., donc des propri\u00e9t\u00e9s scientifiques, naturelles, mais je vois aussi des choses que je ne vois plus parce que je suis trop moderne, je vois donc la f\u00e9e, le lutin, tel esprit de la for\u00c3\u00aat, etc. J’ai donc en superposition sur mes lunettes plusieurs paysages et la nature me parle \u00e0 nouveau. <\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nDid they implement that?<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nNon. C’\u00e9tait une tr\u00e8s belle id\u00e9e. Le concept qui avait \u00e9t\u00e9 d\u00e9velopp\u00e9 \u00e9tait aussi destin\u00e9 \u00e0 convaincre les gens, \u00e0 faire taire les critiques. L’architecte et les concepteurs y croyaient beaucoup : faire une exposition universelle qui n’ait pas les propri\u00e9t\u00e9s d’une exposition universelle, qui rompe compl\u00e8tement. Pas de pavillons, pas de grands d\u00e9ploiements technologiques, pas d’imageries, rien du tout. Finalement le projet japonais a \u00e9t\u00e9 accept\u00e9 et sign\u00e9 par le bureau international des expositions. Les gens se sont un peu calm\u00e9s, et la d\u00e9cision officielle a \u00e9t\u00e9 prise. L’\u00e9quipe de concepteurs qui avait r\u00e9alis\u00e9 le projet \u00e9tait plut\u00c3\u00b4t jeune (40-45 ans), form\u00e9s de gens plut\u00c3\u00b4t postmodernes. D’ailleurs un anthropologue \u00e9tait venu interviewer Latour sur le concept de nature, Michel Serres, L\u00e9vi-Strauss ; ils avaient beaucoup travaill\u00e9 avec cette mouvance-l\u00e0.
\nUne fois que le projet a \u00e9t\u00e9 officialis\u00e9, cette \u00e9quipe a \u00e9t\u00e9 remerci\u00e9e, et on a mis a la place des vieux, des gens des ann\u00e9es Soixante-dix, qui avaient d\u00e9j\u00e0 particip\u00e9 \u00e0 des expositions pr\u00e9c\u00e9dentes.<\/strong> Le site avait chang\u00e9 puisque la controverse \u00e9tait trop vive. On a finalement fait l’exposition dans un parc qui \u00e9tait d\u00e9j\u00e0 am\u00e9nag\u00e9 et finalement il y a eu des pavillons.<\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nEverything was done the traditional way.<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nOui, \u00e0 peu pr\u00e8s. Le th\u00e8me ne sautait pas aux yeux, n’\u00e9tait pas flagrant. L’innovation avait \u00e9t\u00e9 r\u00e9elle au d\u00e9part. Les concepteurs avaient vraiment cherch\u00e9 des id\u00e9es nouvelles pour prende leur responsabilit\u00e9 par rapport \u00e0 un paradoxe<\/strong> qui leur sautait aussi aux yeux : faire venir des milliers de personnes sur un site naturel<\/strong>. <\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nOne of the things that we’re pretty clear about nowadays at the Foundation is to try and keep a distinction between the idea of creativity, and the one of innovation, which are not the same thing. Even though people tend to conflate them together, they are not the same thing because one thing is creative thinking: an original discovery, a piece of architecture or even a piece of technology, and a complete different thing is when this becomes an innovation. This means when it is inside society, when it proliferates in society in the form of artefacts, of protocols of action, routines. In that sense the mini-skirt is an innovation, because at some point it changed gender roles, it changed customs in society<\/strong>. It doesn’t always mean that once you have done something creative it becomes an innovation, in the sense that it has an impact on society. I thought that your examples on the Japanese architect was a perfect example of trying think of something creatively because it’s going to have an immediate impact on environment in this case. It is a creative innovation that is trying to be responsible.
\nI suppose your work has been done mainly with scientists. The way we are trying to think about responsibility in innovation is how many different agencies are involved, it’s not just scientists, and even if it were, there are so many ways in which responsibility in science is taken up by boards of advisors, ethical committees, funding bodies, sponsoring institutions, patient’s associations…<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nDans cette perspective-l\u00e0, le projet pour l’exposition universelle est int\u00e9ressant parce que c’\u00e9tait une agence, une agency<\/em>, particuli\u00e8rement complexe, en termes de personnes impliqu\u00e9es, et puis il y avait ce site naturel qui imposait un certain nombre de choses, avec la d\u00e9couverte des esp\u00e8ces rares, etc. Il y avait ensuite tous les corps d’experts. Moi je travaillais avec les architectes, mais il y avait \u00e9videmment des biologistes, des g\u00e9ographes, des ing\u00e9nieurs, tous les corps de m\u00e9tiers \u00e9taient repr\u00e9sent\u00e9s pour concevoir une exposition de cette envergure. C’est un projet national, d’abord, avant d’\u00c3\u00aatre international. Il y avait effectivement une assembl\u00e9e qui s’est constitu\u00e9e au fur et \u00e0 mesure de l’histoire de l’exposition, avec \u00e9norm\u00e9ment de tensions, des tensions politiques, \u00e9conomiques, scientifiques. Les propositions faites par l’architecte ne sont qu’un aspect de la totalit\u00e9 du projet et du programme. <\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nI was wondering while you were talking about this, how much it could be an example of trying to give voice to things in the Latourian sense, you know, the parliament of things. How much this was an effort of giving voice and agency to the landscape?<\/p>\n

SH
\nC’est tr\u00e8s vrai, mais \u00c3\u00a7a, c’est beaucoup moins choquant au Japon. Le Japon est aussi, par tradition, animiste, avec le shinto\u00c3\u00afsme. Il n’y a pas du tout de contradiction au Japon \u00e0 faire parler les \u00c3\u00aatres naturels, au contraire.<\/strong> Ce genre de projet qui s’internationalise est int\u00e9ressant parce que on voit la confrontation entre des mod\u00e8les de pens\u00e9s qui sont assez diff\u00e9rents. Tr\u00e8s spontan\u00e9ment les habitants autour du site qui \u00e9taient contre le projet d’exposition ont envoy\u00e9 des lettres de protestation au bureau international des expositions, \u00e0 Paris. Une des lettres que j’ai trouv\u00e9es c’\u00e9tait “une esp\u00e8ce de luciole a kind of firefly<\/em>“, “nous pensons que”, etc. La lettre \u00e9tait sign\u00e9e fireflies<\/em>. On sait bien que c’est aussi un artifice d’\u00e9criture, mais je ne pense pas qu’une association fran\u00c3\u00a7aise, par exemple, qui protesterait, ferait parler les luciole\/fireflies. Je pense que c’\u00e9tait fait tout \u00e0 fait spontan\u00e9ment : les objets naturels ont besoin de porte-parole, on n’est rien de plus que des porte-parole, on les met au-devant de la sc\u00e8ne, car eux savent parler beaucoup mieux que nous de toutes ces affaires-l\u00e0. Tout cela est beaucoup li\u00e9 au fait qu’on est dans un contexte japonais, mais \u00c3\u00a7a ne choque absolument pas.<\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nIt’s really a literal clash of ontologies, isn’t it? <\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nLe travail de Philippe Descola donne beaucoup de grain \u00e0 moudre, mais c’est vrai que – je ne veux pas g\u00e9n\u00e9raliser – mais c’est vrai qu’il y a au Japon \u00e9norm\u00e9ment de choses \u00e0 penser dans ce cadre-l\u00e0. Il y a beaucoup de ph\u00e9nom\u00e8nes de r\u00e9sistance<\/strong>. Au Japon on n’est pas devenu moderne de la m\u00c3\u00aame mani\u00e8re qu’ici, ou qu’ailleurs non plus, mais il y a beaucoup de ph\u00e9nom\u00e8nes de superposition. D\u00e9j\u00e0, au Japon on est animiste, on est shinto\u00c3\u00afste, et on est boudhiste aussi, \u00c3\u00a7a n’a jamais pos\u00e9 de contradiction, on est naturaliste aussi, c’est juste une affiliation en plus qui se superpose aux deux autres et qui, du coup, cr\u00e9\u00e9 des agencements in\u00e9dits, qui innovent d’une certaine fa\u00c3\u00a7on. C’est vrai, il y a un clash d’ontologie qui est visible dans beaucoup de sph\u00e8res au Japon et notamment pas la sph\u00e8re traditionnelle.
\nTous les endroits, au Japon, o\u00f9 il y a de la cr\u00e9ativit\u00e9, tous les lieux de fabrication d’objets nouveaux obligent \u00e0 l’internationalisation, \u00e0 \u00c3\u00aatre en confrontation, \u00e0 utiliser des outils qui viennent d’ailleurs : c’est l\u00e0 qu’on voit comment cette rencontre s’effectue.<\/strong> On en profite alors pour red\u00e9finir qu’est-ce que c’est que la modernit\u00e9, qu’est-ce que c’est que l’occident, qu’est-ce que c’est qu’\u00c3\u00aatre japonais, qu’est-ce que c’est que la nature. Tout \u00c3\u00a7a est red\u00e9fini au passage. <\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nJust one last question. On the basis of your experience on Japanese society, have you experienced or have you got examples of how this different way of voicing nature, of taking care of nature is maybe present in different ways of dealing with political culture? I mean, when we talk about planning innovation in defence of, for instance, urban spaces, building cities, or managing pollution. Having never been to Japan, my image of Japan is not the landscape that you evoked, but it’s Tokyo, it’s no oxygen, it’s mercury in the sea, it’s pollution of the fish and the nutritive chain. I wonder, because you said that this is visible especially in the traditional domains\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6 In the spaces in which modernisation has already had an impact on Japanese society, on ways of life and spaces of living, do you think that they’re being Japanese and their having a different ontology of reference, has that helped them to develop a different political culture?<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nJe travaille en milieu tr\u00e8s urbain, o\u00f9 la culture est tr\u00e8s internationale : c’est un peu l\u00e0-dedans que je regarde ces ph\u00e9nom\u00e8nes.
\nSur la question politique, le paradoxe a \u00e9t\u00e9 soulev\u00e9 de tr\u00e8s nombreuses fois. Les japonais disent depuis tr\u00e8s longtemps – c’est une tradition – qu’ils sont des amoureux de la nature, qu’ils vivent en harmonie avec la nature, et en m\u00c3\u00aame temps ils la d\u00e9truisent. Ce sont de grands pollueurs.
\nAugustin Berque, qui a beaucoup \u00e9crit sur l’espace, notemment l’espace urbain au Japon, montre certaines aberrations architecturales et urbaines. Il n’y a pas eu de plan d’occupation des sols pendant longtemps. On a pu donc concevoir que une des rivi\u00e8res qui coulent dans Tokyo soit saccag\u00e9e, d\u00e9truite, pollu\u00e9e, et puis on a reconstruit par-dessus une petite all\u00e9e de b\u00e9ton sur laquelle coule un petit peu d’eau tandis que la vraie rivi\u00e8re compl\u00e8tement pollu\u00e9e coule en-dessous. Tout cela forme un paradoxe apparent<\/strong>. On pourrait en rester \u00e0 dire que les Japonais se figurent seulement qu’ils sont des amoureux de la nature. Mais je crois que c’est plus int\u00e9ressant, pour retenir aussi une des le\u00c3\u00a7ons du livre de Philippe Descola, de dire que, tout simplement, ils n’ont pas la m\u00c3\u00aame perspective de la nature que nous, ils n’ont pas la m\u00c3\u00aame id\u00e9e de ce que c’est que la nature et de ce qu’il y a \u00e0 sauver, de ce qu’il y a \u00e0 pr\u00e9server.<\/strong>Donc il y a aussi plusieurs id\u00e9ologies de la nature qui s’entrecroisent dans le Japon contemporain. Il y a une id\u00e9ologie de la nature qui vient de chez nous, mais il y a aussi une id\u00e9ologie de la nature, ou de ce qui serait naturel, qui est h\u00e9rit\u00e9e du Japon traditionnel, du shinto, du boudhisme, etc.
\nC’est difficile de s’arr\u00c3\u00aater au paradoxe. Tout mon travail consiste \u00e0 essayer de rendre compte, de comprendre la mani\u00e8re dont diff\u00e9rentes id\u00e9ologies de la nature, diff\u00e9rentes natures peuvent prendre place en un lieu et comment les Japonais vivent avec \u00c3\u00a7a aujourd’hui. Eux n’\u00e9prouvent aucun paradoxe sur cette question-l\u00e0 et continueront \u00e0 vous dire qu’ils sont des amoureux de la nature, alors m\u00c3\u00aame que vous, vous promenant au Japon, vous aurez la sentation tout \u00e0 fait inverse. Il faut juste ne pas venir avec sa propre conception de ce que c’est que la nature, autrement on s’y perd. L’id\u00e9e est plut\u00c3\u00b4t de repartir sur ce que c’est pour eux, o\u00f9 est-ce qu’elle se situe.<\/strong> C’est aussi quelque chose de tr\u00e8s flexible dans le temps, qui s’est beaucoup \u00e9labor\u00e9, qui est totalement dynamique, qui fait aussi que le paysage urbain change compl\u00e8tement, qu’il y ait une relation au temps diff\u00e9rente, une relation \u00e0 l’espace diff\u00e9rente.<\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nDo you think they are implementing innovative political tools in order to re-think the relationship with nature? I’m thinking about the participatory democracy<\/strong>…Do they discuss responsibility? Is it present?<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nJe crois que la notion de citoyennet\u00e9, par exemple, de politique participative, d’assembl\u00e9es, etc., commence \u00e0 venir.<\/strong> Elle est r\u00e9cente aussi chez nous, mais je crois qu’elle est encore plus r\u00e9cente au Japon et que, pour l’instant, les gens qui s’occupent un peu de politique de l’environnement au Japon font plut\u00c3\u00b4t le constat d’un retard, que des propositions innovantes en cette mati\u00e8re.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

\"Sophie<\/a><\/div>\n
\n
See also: Of flies and forests: putting laboratory work in its social context (part 1)<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"author":16,"featured_media":23270,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"mc4wp_mailchimp_campaign":[],"footnotes":""},"categories":[3722,2763],"tags":[2384,4077,4210,4211,3926,3990],"class_list":["post-17857","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-grasseni_en","category-live_archive","tag-anthropology","tag-japan_en","tag-laboratory_en","tag-morality_en","tag-responsibility_en","tag-scientists_en"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\nOf flies and forests: putting laboratory work in its social context (part 2) - Fondazione Giannino Bassetti<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.fondazionebassetti.org\/en\/live_archive\/2007\/11\/of_flies_and_forests_putting_l_1_2\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Of flies and forests: putting laboratory work in its social context (part 2) - 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