{"id":17856,"date":"2007-11-23T09:48:24","date_gmt":"2007-11-23T08:48:24","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.fondazionebassetti.org\/non-categorizzato\/2007\/11\/of_flies_and_forests_putting_l_2"},"modified":"2024-02-25T10:13:12","modified_gmt":"2024-02-25T09:13:12","slug":"of_flies_and_forests_putting_l_2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.fondazionebassetti.org\/en\/live_archive\/2007\/11\/of_flies_and_forests_putting_l_2","title":{"rendered":"Of flies and forests: putting laboratory work in its social context (part 1)"},"content":{"rendered":"

In this interview to Sophie Houdart<\/a> taken at the Cerisy Cultural Centre in France in July 2006, we debated on the many links between the ethnography of science and the interrogation on responsible innovation. The work of Sophie Houdart brings to the fore many important categories, that of fact and that of event, the idea of a moral responsibility of the scientist for the kind of “objects” he\/she creates in the laboratory, and the scientist’s awareness of the relevance of their work for society at large.<\/p>\n

Cristina Grasseni<\/strong>
\nAs you know at the Bassetti Foundation we work on this idea, responsibility in innovation, but in the past we have tried to ask ourselves how this intersects with the making of science. We worked with Bruno Latour for instance, who came to give a lecture, a couple of years ago, on innovation and representation, talking about this idea, the parliament of things. I just wonder, because you have this fresh experience on ethnography in the laboratory <\/strong>and being an anthropologist myself, I just wonder if you’ve encountered different cultural formations of what is a scientific event, or fact, I would say, because then you talked a lot about the difference between fact and event. And aldo whether you think this ties on with the debate about who is responsible for injecting any kind of innovation in society. <\/p>\n

Sophie Houdart<\/strong>
\nJ’ai fait une exp\u00e9rience ethnographique tr\u00e8s dense aupr\u00e8s d’un laboratoire au Japon, qui travaillait en g\u00e9n\u00e9tique du comportement, que j’ai compar\u00e9 avec un laboratoire fran\u00c3\u00a7ais<\/strong>. Les deux laboratoires collaboraient, \u00e9changeaient des chercheurs, des morceaux d’Adn, des drosophiles et tout un tas de choses. Dans la comparaison j’ai mis \u00e0 jour qu’ils collaboraient effectivement, et bien que tout se passait tr\u00e8s bien – ils \u00e9crivaient des articles ensemble, etc. – ils avaient cependant une repr\u00e9sentation diff\u00e9rente de la science, notamment de la place du scientifique dans la pratique scientifique.
\nLa deuxi\u00e8me chose que m’ont \u00e9voqu\u00e9 vos questions concernant mon terrain, c’est le r\u00c3\u00b4le tr\u00e8s important que joue, depuis longtemps maintenant, le terme “innovation” au Japon, notamment dans des questions d’identit\u00e9<\/strong>. \u00c3\u20ac savoir que la science moderne occidentale, comme on la conna\u00c3\u00aet, a \u00e9t\u00e9 introduite au Japon d’un coup, assez abruptement. D\u00e8s le d\u00e9but de cette introduction, en fin XIX\u00e8me si\u00e8cle, et tout au long du d\u00e9veloppement scientifique, le Japon a pens\u00e9 la mani\u00e8re d’accompagner le d\u00e9veloppement scientifique, qui \u00e9tait exog\u00e8ne, qui venait de l’ext\u00e9rieur ; de ne pas le prendre juste comme \u00c3\u00a7a, mais de r\u00e9fl\u00e9chir aux cons\u00e9quences qu’avait ce mode de d\u00e9veloppement qui pour les Japonais \u00e9tait une alternative. Ils ont fait le choix, mais c’\u00e9tait v\u00e9ritablement une alternative : d’accord, on d\u00e9cide d’\u00c3\u00aatre modernes. Mais tr\u00e8s souvent la question s’est pos\u00e9e : qu’est-ce qu’il y a au-del\u00e0 de la modernit\u00e9? qu’est-ce qu’il y a au-del\u00e0 du d\u00e9veloppement ?<\/strong><\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nThis is interesting because I would be very curious to see how they tried to appropriate through their own cultural categories this idea: “we accept to be modern but on our own terms”. When you talk about models of development the idea of responsibility in innovation is just there in the background. It’s just another way of translating this concept.<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nEn fait la critique de la science et la critique de la modernit\u00e9 a accompagn\u00e9 un d\u00e9veloppement en m\u00c3\u00aame temps forcenn\u00e9 : c’est \u00e0 dire que les Japonais on \u00e9t\u00e9 tr\u00e8s prompts, tr\u00e8s vifs \u00e0 d\u00e9velopper toutes les techniques<\/strong>. Tr\u00e8s vite, la question qui leur est venue aussi par l’ext\u00e9rieur, par les \u00e9trangers, leur a \u00e9t\u00e9 pos\u00e9e de savoir qu’est-ce qu’ils apportaient alors qu’on leur donnait la science ?<\/strong> Je sch\u00e9matise un peu : quelle \u00e9tait leur place \u00e0 eux, maintenant, dans le d\u00e9veloppement scientifique ?
\nApr\u00e8s-guerre, une fois que les questions d’identit\u00e9 ont \u00e9t\u00e9 un petit peu estomp\u00e9es, grossomodo on leur a dit : vous n’innovez pas, vous copiez, vous imitez bien, mais vous n’innovez pas. <\/strong>
\nDonc, apr\u00e8s-guerre, et jusque dans la pratique contemporaine, la tension entre pratiquer la science en tant que japonais et pratiquer une science innovante \u00e9tait presque une antinomie. On n’arrivait pas \u00e0 trouver le bon moyen d’\u00c3\u00aatre innovant tout en restant japonais et en pratiquant la science.<\/strong>
\nIl y a beaucoup de d\u00e9bat autour de \u00c3\u00a7a. Beaucoup de scientifiques ont pris la parole en disant : “oui, mais on est de bons copieurs”, “on fait de bons d\u00e9veloppements technologiques \u00e0 partir des id\u00e9es des autres”. Ou alors : “non, mais on innove diff\u00e9remment”… Donc il y a eu tout un tas de d\u00e9bats qui peuvent \u00c3\u00aatre situ\u00e9s historiquement.
\nMais dans la pratique scientifique, ce que j’ai vu dans le laboratoire c’est aussi des tensions tr\u00e8s vives avec \u00c3\u00a7a.<\/strong> Le laboratoire de g\u00e9n\u00e9tique du comportement que j’ai \u00e9tudi\u00e9 \u00e9tait financ\u00e9 par un programme de recherche qui se voulait justement totalement innovant, c’est-\u00e0-dire rompant avec toute la pratique scientifique traditionnelle : pas de mod\u00e8le hi\u00e9rarchique \u00e0 la japonaise : on avait choisi des directeurs jeunes, choisis pour leur charisme, on ne regardait pas forc\u00e9ment leur cursus universitaire. On avait pris toutes les cat\u00e9gories par lesquelles on avait d\u00e9fini par le pass\u00e9 la science japonaise, alors qu’elle \u00e9tait hi\u00e9rarchique, conservatrice, vieillotte, peu innovante, etc., on avait pris l’inverse et on avait choisi les directeurs de laboratoire jeunes, dynamiques, issus d’universit\u00e9s pas forc\u00e9ment prestigieuses, et on leur donnait beaucoup d’argent pendant quatre ans pour mener \u00e0 bien un projet de recherche innovant, sans qu’il y ait explicitement d’obligation de r\u00e9sultats.
\nCe qui m’int\u00e9ressait c’\u00e9tait les deux laboratoires, japonais et fran\u00c3\u00a7ais.<\/strong> On voyait tr\u00e8s bien que pour le directeur japonais, la place dans laquelle il avait \u00e9t\u00e9 mis, il l’assumait totalement. Il disait : ce qui importe, c’est moins la science innovante, que un homme innovant capable de produire des objets innovants qu’il va accompagner dans le monde.
\nOn avait, d’un c\u00c3\u00b4t\u00e9, le scientifique fran\u00c3\u00a7ais qui \u00e9tait tr\u00e8s naturaliste au sens de Descola, et qui \u00e9pousait l’id\u00e9ologie suivant laquelle un fait scientifique est un fait scientifique en dehors du chercheur. Dans le laboratoire japonais le fait scientifique \u00e9tait un bon fait scientifique (il y a d\u00e9j\u00e0 une moralit\u00e9 dans le fait scientifique) que si il \u00e9tait produit et accompagn\u00e9 par un bon scientifique. Donc, un scientifique innovant est un vrai humain, quelqu’un qui soit moralement juste. Il y avait beaucoup de discours comme \u00c3\u00a7a, sur le fait que ce qui ordonnait les choses dans la nature, ce qui faisait les innovations ce n’\u00e9tait pas la nature elle-m\u00c3\u00aame, qu’on ne pouvait pas la laisser s’ordonner toute seule, d’une certaine fa\u00c3\u00a7on, mais qu’il \u00e9tait de la responsabilit\u00e9 du scientifique lui-m\u00c3\u00aame, moralement juste, d\u00e9fini comme un \u00c3\u00aatre int\u00e8gre, socialement ad\u00e9quat, bien \u00e0 sa place<\/strong>, etc. Un \u00c3\u00aatre comme \u00c3\u00a7a pouvait produire de bons objets. L’innovation, dans ce cas-l\u00e0 un nouvel objet, ne pouvait exister qu’avec quelqu’un qui le tient. <\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nWhich were the ways in which he took care of his new objects morally, as you say? Cause I’m thinking about, (as you talked about in your article), the way the scientists engaged directly with the media. They kind of directed the media exposure around this new object. Maybe you just want to say quickly what this new object was and in which way, I suppose there were many, a scientist must take care of this object that he or she morally created.<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nLe laboratoire travaillait sur plusieurs mutants sexuels. Le destin de ces mutations-l\u00e0 s’est fait au fur et \u00e0 mesure des ann\u00e9es, suivant la facult\u00e9 des scientifiques et des objets de ces mutations-l\u00e0, non pas \u00e0 avoir une indenti\u00e9 fixe et ne plus en bouger, mais \u00e0 \u00c3\u00aatre suffisamment flexibles pour encaisser, suivant les \u00e9tats, diff\u00e9rentes identit\u00e9s.
\nDonc, il y avait des probl\u00e8mes de nomination. Dans l’article que vous avez lu il \u00e9tait question longtemps de ce mutant homosexuel que le laboratoire japonais d\u00e9signait comme mutant homosexuel “Satori”. La mise en m\u00e9dias des mutations, de l’objet sicentifique s’est pos\u00e9e plus sur ce mutant-l\u00e0 que sur les autres, mais on voyait tr\u00e8s bien que pour chacun des mutants la question morale n’\u00e9tait pas toujours explicit\u00e9e comme \u00c3\u00a7a, mais que la question morale c’\u00e9tait de faire en sorte de rester toujours derri\u00e8re les objets scientifiques et de s’assurer que en les connectant avec d’autres objets scientifiques on pouvait faire dire des bonnes choses aussi pour la soci\u00e9t\u00e9.
\nPar rapport \u00e0 ce mutant homosexuel-l\u00e0, une des parties de la controverse qui avait eu lieu opposait le laboratoire japonais au laboratoire fran\u00c3\u00a7ais.<\/strong> Le laboratoire fran\u00c3\u00a7ais disait : pas de m\u00e9dias, pas de publicit\u00e9, on ne peut pas parler de mutants homosexuels, on ne peut pas parler de mouches homosexuelles, on parle de mutants m\u00c3\u00a2le-m\u00c3\u00a2le ou de comportement m\u00c3\u00a2le vis-\u00e0-vis de m\u00c3\u00a2le, mais on ne qualifie pas de la m\u00c3\u00aame mani\u00e8re les hommes et les drosophiles. Autre point important : il y a une diff\u00e9rence entre ce qui se passe dans le laboratoire et ce qui se passe dans la soci\u00e9t\u00e9.<\/strong> On tient bien ferm\u00e9es les portes du laboratoire et la parole qui est donn\u00e9e aux m\u00e9dias est d’un autre ordre.
\nDans le laboratoire japonais, au contraire, le directeur japonais envisageait la sortie des objets du laboratoire comme faisant partie de l’objet lui-m\u00c3\u00aame. C’est-\u00e0-dire que si un objet n’est pas cabable de dire des choses aux gens sur eux-m\u00c3\u00aames, ce n’est pas un bon objet scientifique. Un bon objet scientifique c’est un objet qui peut r\u00e9pondre \u00e0 des questions que les gens se posent dans la soci\u00e9t\u00e9.
\nJe sch\u00e9matise, car il y a beaucoup plus de nuances, mais l’opposition entre les deux laboratoires, entre les deux hommes surtout \u00e9tait assez marquante de ce point de vue-l\u00e0.<\/strong> Le directeur du laboratoire japonais avait des discours assez forts vis-\u00e0-vis de son coll\u00e8gue fran\u00c3\u00a7ais, en disant : il faut arr\u00c3\u00aater d’\u00c3\u00aatre prudent, arr\u00c3\u00aater de se fermer les yeux, il faut appeler un chat un chat, car il en va de notre responsabilit\u00e9 de scientifiques de porter aussi \u00e0 l’ext\u00e9rieur l’existance des objets scientifiques qu’on produit dans le laboratoire. Et un bon objet scientifique c’est justement un objet qui va faire le lien, se balader d’une cat\u00e9gorie \u00e0 l’autre, passer la fronti\u00e8re sans \u00c3\u00aatre dissout.<\/p>\n

CG<\/strong>
\nWhat did the Japanese director believe that the homosexual drosophila melanogaster had to say to Japanese society?<\/p>\n

SH<\/strong>
\nC’\u00e9tait, en particulier, un vieux d\u00e9bat sur la relation entre g\u00e8nes et comportement. Quelle est l’influence que peuvent avoir les g\u00e8nes, donc la nature, sur des comportements sociaux, notamment en l’occurrence, sur des comportements sexuels ?<\/strong> La position du directeur du laboratoire japonais, qui \u00e9tait tr\u00e8s choquante pour les gens du laboratoire fran\u00c3\u00a7ais, \u00e9tait de dire : si il y a dans notre soci\u00e9t\u00e9 des gens qui veulent comprendre pourquoi ils ont telle ou telle orientation sexuelle, peut-\u00c3\u00aatre les gens vont penser : ah! c’est par ce g\u00e8ne que je suis homosexuel, c’est par ce g\u00e8ne que je suis h\u00e9t\u00e9rosexuel. Il pensait donc que la cat\u00e9gorie g\u00e8ne, que les mutations g\u00e9n\u00e9tiques \u00e9taient \u00e0 m\u00c3\u00aame de r\u00e9pondre \u00e0 des questions que les gens se posaient, des questions qui \u00e9taient aussi psychologiques.
\nEn France le contexte historique est tr\u00e8s fort – tout d’abord pour la question de l’eug\u00e9nisme – c’est pour cela que le directeur du laboratoire fran\u00c3\u00a7ais ne voulait pas entendre parler de telles liaisons entre un g\u00e8ne et un comportement.
\nPour me rendre compte de cette sorte de sortie de “Satori”, de ce g\u00e8ne-l\u00e0, du laboratoire, j’\u00e9tais all\u00e9e rencontrer le directeur d’une association gay \u00e0 Tokyo. Le directeur du laboratoire japonais \u00e9tant assez m\u00e9diatis\u00e9, je fus d’abord susprise qu’il ne connaisse pas son existence. Je lui avais donc r\u00e9sum\u00e9 les travaux et je lui avais demand\u00e9 qu’est-qu’il pensait de l’id\u00e9e qu’un g\u00e8ne puisse d\u00e9terminer un comportement, et cela ne l’a pas du tout choqu\u00e9. Ce n’\u00e9tait pas son probl\u00e8me du tout.
\nLes probl\u00e8mes qui motivaient l’existence de son association c’\u00e9tait plus des probl\u00e8mes d’ordre social, mais au sens d’ordonnancement aussi, de faire valoir les droits des homosexuels. Comme on ne fait pas une coupure \u00e9pist\u00e9mologique, ontologique, radicale entre la nature et la culture au japon, le fait que mon comportement en tant qu’homme soit influenc\u00e9 par des g\u00e8nes ne pose pas de probl\u00e8me \u00e0 priori. En gros, on ne voyait pas le probl\u00e8me.
\nIl y a plein de param\u00e8tres qui font qu’effectivement le directeur du laboratoire japonais pouvait \u00c3\u00aatre tenu comme responsable d’un certain nombre de ces \u00e9nonc\u00e9s dans la soci\u00e9t\u00e9, mais en m\u00c3\u00aame temps il y avait un contexte de r\u00e9ception, un contexte local particulier qui faisait que, \u00e0 la fois, le fait d’\u00e9noncer l’id\u00e9e n’\u00e9tait pas choquant, et le recevoir n’\u00e9tait pas choquant non plus. <\/p>\n

(more on 26nd november)<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

\"Sophie<\/a><\/div>\n
\n
See also: Biography and bibliography by Sophie Houdart<\/a> e The Bassetti Foundation at the Centre Culturel International of Cerisy-La -Salle<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"author":16,"featured_media":23268,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"mc4wp_mailchimp_campaign":[],"footnotes":""},"categories":[3722,2763],"tags":[2384,4077,4210,4211,3926,3990],"class_list":["post-17856","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-grasseni_en","category-live_archive","tag-anthropology","tag-japan_en","tag-laboratory_en","tag-morality_en","tag-responsibility_en","tag-scientists_en"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\nOf flies and forests: putting laboratory work in its social context (part 1) - Fondazione Giannino Bassetti<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.fondazionebassetti.org\/en\/live_archive\/2007\/11\/of_flies_and_forests_putting_l_2\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Of flies and forests: putting laboratory work in its social context (part 1) - 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